Baran siege master directorcut's

Ben voila ce que j'ai put chopper sur wikiwikiwar concernant les list ERC de nos amis anglo saxon, une nouvelle version des siege master, je vous laisse yeuter et je passe après pour râler :

Siege Armies – Directors Cut
Siege armies have a Strategy rating of 1. All formations have an Initiative rating of 2+.

Siege Regiment Companies

Company Type Units Points Cost
1 HQ One Supreme Command unit, plus nine Siege Infantry units and one Commissar 300 points
Siege Infantry Platoon Imperial Guard Command unit plus nine Siege Infantry units 225 points

Siege Regiment Company Upgrades
(Three may be taken per HQ or Infantry Platoon)

Upgrade Units Points Cost
Infantry Section Six Siege Infantry units 75 points
Rapier Battery Three Rapiers 75 points
Thudd Gun Battery Three Thudd guns 75 points
Hellhound Squadron Three Mars pattern Hellhounds 125 points
Mortar Section Three Griffons 100 points
Snipers Add one or two Snipers 25 points each

Siege Regiment Support Formations
(Two may be taken per HQ or Infantry Platoon)

Formation Units Points Cost
Siege Regiment Artillery Company Nine Götterdämmerung Howitzers, plus nine gun emplacements 425 points
Rough Rider Platoon Six Rough Rider units 150 points
Light Tank Platoon Six Siegfried light tanks 150 points
Heavy Tank Platoon Six Ragnarok heavy tanks 300 points
Siege Regiment Artillery Battery Three Götterdämmerung Howitzers, plus three Bruennhilde transporters 150 points
Siege Regiment AA Battery Three Blitzen AA guns, plus three Bruennhilde transporters or three gun emplacements 100 points
Super Heavy Tank One Stormhammer 200 points
Bombard Battery Three Crusader pattern Bombards 225 points
0-1 Deathstrike Missile Battery Two Deathstrike launchers, plus two gun emplacements 200 points
0-1 Sapper Platoon Eight Sapper units. The units may be split up and added to one or more Infantry Companies in the army, or fielded as a single formation in their own right. 250 points

Siege Regiment Fortified Positions
(one may be taken per Siege Infantry Platoon)

Fortified Positions Up to 500mm of trenches and 500mm of razor wire, plus up to 6 gun emplacements or bunkers. 100 points

Planetary Defence Force Aircraft
(Up to a quarter of the army’s points may be spent on Aircraft)
Formation Points Cost
Four PDF Fighters 150 points
Three PDF Bombers 275 points

Special Rules

Commissars:- A Siege army may include an additional 1 Commissar character per each full 500 points taken. The Commissars do not cost any points and may be attached to any formation, though only one Commissar may be added to each formation.

Fortified positions:- A Siege Regiment army regiment is allowed to purchase one set of fortified positions for its troops to occupy for each Siege Infantry company included in the army.
Fortified positions must be set up after Objectives, but before Spacecraft and Garrisons are deployed. They may be set up anywhere a vehicle may deploy in the Siege half of the table. You may split up a set of fortified positions as desired, as long as the rules for formation coherence are adhered to. For example, you could split up trenches into several lines, as long as there are 5cm ‘links’ between the different parts of the position. Fortified positions count as having a move of zero, and may ‘garrison’ (eg, they can be set up in positions that garrison units can be set up in). It goes without saying that they may not be transported, and any players that were considering transporting them onto the table should be deeply ashamed of themselves!
Once set up fortified positions may be used by any unit, not just the units they were purchased for. They may be captured and used by enemy units too.

HQ:- You must include a HQ. The enemy count as having achieved the ‘Break Their Spirit’ victory condition by destroying this formation or by destroying the most expensive formation in the army (see 6.1.7 in the Epic:
Armageddon rulebook).



Designers notes

So what does an army champion of a published army do? Pretty much up to them really. Well first off try and actually paint them (I find tournament deadlines ideal for this). Second keep an eye on the armies performance. On the off chance that its overpowered testing out some cuts to that power is a good idea. Of course producing a few articles based around them doesn’t hurt!

In the case of the Siegemasters they are indeed overpowered, so see the recommendations I’ve stuck up on Epicomms and the SG site for the solutions (in essence heavy price increases on the infantry companies).

But after all that, then what? Well, any army is restricted by a variety of factors during development, much like a movie but what if you could change them to an idealised version…….



The Siege armies of the Imperial Guard are not the most glamorous. They can’t fight battles of manoeuvre, their equipment is not the best in the galaxy and any action can be very bloody. But they look darn impressive laid out on the table. Ranks upon ranks of men, brutal looking tanks, wire, trenches and….. Chimera?

Yes, it’s true. A close inspection of the troops reveals Griffons, Bombards, Deathstrike transports and Hellhounds. The presence of various new super heavy tanks is also disturbing on an aesthetical level. These sleek looking machines are out of place and anyway raise the question if you can produce/supply these why not Leman Russ, regular Chimera and so on.

How to correct this and keep ‘the look’? Well the first and most obvious idea is don’t use them. I mean do you really need such high tech marvels when you have the muscle of a 1000 men (and a few Heavy Stubbers)?

The second is available to you old timers out there, or those fortunate enough to come into possession of some of the early Epic models. Previous versions exist of Bombards, Deathstrikes, Hellhounds, Shadowswords and Baneblades. The Hellhounds especially look suitably second rate. A further alternative to the Baneblade exists in the form of the Stormhammer, a far more basic looking vehicle. Griffons present a problem, but mixing the older chimera chassis (used for Basilisks and Hydra as well as a couple of other vehicles) with a griffons gun looks passable.

The third is to use the following, an army list drawing upon those older models mentioned above. Be warned! The original Siege list had problems with being overpowered and any further changes could give you too much of an edge. Any imbalances encountered should be reported immediately! I’ve found none so far but I’ve only playing against those familiar with my tricks and foibles.

The list replaces the Bombard and Hellhound with their previous versions. The Deathstrike is replaced by a V1 rocket style launcher. The Griffon is replaced with an infantry mortar unit and finally Baneblades and Shadowswords get the boot to be replaced with Stormhammers.
New Units

Infantry Heavy Mortar
The famous 120’s of the Pavonis 116th are credited with single handedly saving the regiment during an unexpected Ork assault in the course of the grinding down and subsequent defeat of an incipient Waaagh! launched by would-be ‘Grand Warlord’ Ruzslash Gutgob. With unflagging spirits the heavy mortars fired a months supply of shells in two days, destroying attack after attack much to the surprise of Ruzslash whose fighta-bombers never reported nor saw any evidence of human artillery in the hastily dug defensive lines.
Type Speed Armour Close Combat Firefight
Infantry 10cm - - 6+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Heavy Mortar 30cm 1BP Indirect

Deathstrike Launcher
The ‘Deathstrike’ is a name given to a variety of missile types by unknowing infantry. Most common is a low yield nuclear fission or fusion warhead, shaped to localise destruction or focus the blast into buried fortifications and underground complexes that once launched move to the target at high speeds. Similar warheads are used for anti shipping strikes by torpedo bombers.
To deal with high value targets Imperial Guard regiments call upon such strikes, be it from heavy bombers, intercontinental missiles or localised support. Tactically having such weapons on hand ensures the fastest strike response with mobile regiments employing Chimera to keep these assets moving and safe from enemy retaliation. Static regiments can build silos but normally emplace simple launching platforms that can be rebuilt from commonly obtained materials in the advent of redeployment, assigning an infantry fireteam to provide close in defence.
Type Speed Armour Close Combat Firefight
Light Vehicle Immobile - 6+ 6+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Deathstrike missile
Heavy Stubber Unlimited
30cm MW2+
AP6+ One-Shot, Titan killer (D6)
-
Notes: The Multi-melta can shoot and be used to confer the macro-weapon ability to the unit’s firefight value.



Hellhound Mars Pattern
No longer produced on Mars itself this pattern dates back to pre-crusade strife. The vehicle was often employed to burn heretics out of fortifications and being of a simple robust design was easy to replace. Forge worlds the galaxy over counted these fabrication plants amongst their first constructions. Over the millennia these factories have been replaced by those producing the more versatile Chimera chassis. The original plants have moved to a thousand worlds where they continue to produce Hellhounds of this ancient design to equip local defence forces the galaxy over.
Unsurprisingly such vehicles find themselves attached to the less glamorous Siege Regiments during campaigns, thrown forward to roast the enemy alive and provide vital support for assaulting companies of men.
The tall profile, lack of secondary weapons and volatile fuel tanks make losses high, but there is an advantage in close range firefights as the high mount enables liquid fire to be rained down on troops who would otherwise be able to benefit from cover.
Type Speed Armour Close Combat Firefight
Armoured Vehicle 15cm 4+ 6+ 4+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Inferno turret 30cm
AND (15cm) AP3+
Small Arms Ignore Cover
Ignore Cover
Notes: The Inferno turret can shoot and be used to confer the Ignore Cover ability to the unit’s firefight value.

Bombard Crusade Pattern
Based on the so-called ‘Crusader’ Leman Russ chassis (a common Leman Russ variant in use with numerous PDF’s) this somewhat less sophisticated Bombard variant is often assigned to support Siege Regiment offensives. Though defensively poorly armed it does possess better armour than the more common Triplex Phall Pattern and thus well suited to move to a forward position during a counter-attack. Each flank is protected by a Heavy Stubber but these are commonly taken for use in firepower hungry front units and replaced with lighter autoguns if at all.
There have been instances where an attack has failed and the fleeing dregs of units between the artillery and the enemy are not enough to offer protection to these stripped down vehicles. Fortunately the ability to leave the field under their own steam unlike the often stationary Gotterdammerung Howitzer has normally averted their loss.
Type Speed Armour Close Combat Firefight
Armoured Vehicle 20cm 5+ 6+ 6+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Siege Mortar 45cm 2BP Ignore Cover, Slow Firing, Indirect

Stormhammer Super Heavy Assault Tank
Numerous different Stormhammer SHT’s exist, fighting all over the galaxy. Indeed it is rare for any two to be exactly the same as the Stormhammer is a conversion to battered and destroyed Imperial SHT’s to swiftly return them to battle. Damaged guns are replaced with worn out artillery barrels - weapons whose shells have started falling short or that can no longer be counted to accurately engage distant targets. These heavy guns find new life providing infantry close support in environments such as cities that conventional armour finds costly to penetrate.
A classic example is the attack on the capitol city of Mendeleev, a world that had taken the decision to break from the Imperium in M38.173. For over two hundred years deprivations from Eldar pirates and a rash of similar independently minded systems delayed any Imperial response. When it came it was spearheaded by a Forgeworld fresh regiment of Baneblades and Shadowswords. Crushing all resistance these tanks moved to enact the pre-invasion threat of decimation if surrender was not immediate, something the ruling elite did not entertain due to purges of nearby systems following capitulation. Defences were concentrated in the seat of planetary power with the intent on deadlocking the invading Imperials long enough for Eldar mercenaries to arrive. Initial attacks were disastrous with a dozen SHT’s lost to carefully positioned guns and traps. Supporting infantry were overwhelmed by pre-sighted heavy weaponry. Salvaged SHT’s were repaired and fitted with captured artillery pieces and numerous close in defensive weapons. Firing at point blank the powerful shells demolished position after position.
Type Speed Armour Close Combat Firefight
War Engine 15cm 4+ 5+ 4+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
4x Heavy Bolters
2x Twin Linked Cannon

Point Defences (Flamers, Bolters, Stubbers etc) 30cm
30cm
AND (15cm)
(15cm) AP5+
AP2+/AT2+
Small Arms
Small Arms -
Ignore Cover, Disrupt
Ignore Cover
Ignore Cover, Extra Attack (+2)
Notes: Reinforced Armour, Thick Rear Armour, Walker, Damage Capacity 3. Critical Hit Effect: The Stormhammer’s considerable magazine explodes. It is destroyed, and any units within 5cm of the model suffer a hit on a D6 roll of 6. The Cannons can shoot and be used to confer the Ignore Cover ability to the unit’s firefight attacks.
Note on walker. This represents the additional tracks often fitted in the underside of the hull, taken from Chimera or Leman Russ vehicles. Left to run freely they may be connected to the main drive shaft when operating in treacherous environments giving improved traction

PDF Fighter
Type Speed Armour Close Combat Firefight
Aircraft Fighter-Bomber - - -
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Cannon
Machine Guns 15cm
15cm AT6+/AA6+
AP6+/AA6+ -
-

PDF Bomber
Type Speed Armour Close Combat Firefight
Aircraft, War Engine Bomber - - -
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Bombs
2x Twin Heavy Stubbers 15cm
15cm 2BP
AA6+ -
-
Notes: Damage Capacity 2. Critical Hit Effect: The Bomber crashes and is destroyed.

J'avais fait un premier post où je râlais sur la liste, mais réflexion faite elle me plaît pas mal.

Alors bien sûr, il y a une ENORME erreur au niveau des compagnies d'infanterie et QG. Les VRAIS coûts sont :

QG > 225
Infanterie > 175

La liste d'armée de Baran a déjà subi une révision, le QG passant notamment de 150 à 225 et l'infanterie de 125 à 175 points. Là, à mon avis , celui qui a compilé à la liste à partir du post du forum s'est planté : il a rajouté les augmentations de coût à la liste DEJA révisée. Ca correspond, d'ailleurs : 300 = 225 + 75 et 225 = 175 + 50. Je pense donc qu'il ne faut pas en tenir compte.

Sinon les profils alternatifs sont assez bien vus et renforcent le côté "armée pourrie et statique" et/ou "armée d'infanterie" de la liste. Les mortiers à la place des Griffons c'est bien vu, les Deathstrike immobiles c'est bien vu, les Stormhammers à la place des autres SHT c'est une bonne idée et les avions moins bien armés c'est sympa aussi.

Malgré un à priori négatif (je trouvais les nouveaux profils un peu "gadgets"), je trouve cette liste modifiée plutôt bien pensée. En corrigeant la grosse erreur du début, bien sûr.

Bon les commentaires :
Beaucoup de bonne choses, mais aussi beaucoup de mauvaise (à mon humble avis ). Mais la liste semble jouable, même si certaine chose me hausse le cœur.

Augmentation de la troupe de 175pts, à 225pts (alors que dans la première version celle-ci était à 125pts ). J'ai l'impression que l'on oublie que la garde standard coute 250pts et contient 13 socles et non pas 10 comme ici. Sans parler que d'un coté on à 7tirs à 45cm AT6+/AP5+ alors que chez nos soviétique adorer on a 9tir 30cm AP6+ et 1tir AT6+/AP5+ à 45cm. J'ai l'impersion que l'on compare ce qui ne l'est pas, surtout que la troupaille est la seul et unique troupe que l'on peut et que l'on doit avoir dans cette liste que l'on veuille ou non, alors que dans d'autre armée on a dans les selecteur de compagnie obligatoire 3, voir 4 choix. 175pts me paraissais chers avant, mais là, je prie pour que le coute reviens sur ce prix pour lequel je pleurais (on est jamais content hieng ).

l'équipe de mortier lourd. Très bonne idée que cette unité en vue de remplacer le griffon. Maintenant je suis pas vraiment sur que l'unité soit apprécier par l'adversaire. Bon certes on paye 100pts (une brouttille) mais 3 socles de mortier considérer comme de l'infanterie qui tire à 60cm dans une grosse unité d'infanterie, fait que cela fait une unité d'artillerie très difficile à buter dans un bunker mit en garnison.
On à les avantages des autre rapier et thund = infanterie donc non ciblable par les armes AT. Et une puissance de feu placer en garnison bien difficile à tuer. Alors que l'ancien griffon (qui n'était pas jouer ) devais avancer 1 tour complet pour être en position de tir, ici on à une unités qui dés le début l'est déjà et en position retrancher off-course !
Une unité fun, mais trop forte à mon goût, il faudrait soit mettre les rapier, thund gun et cette unité en VL pour plus facilement s'en débarrasser, mais à ce moment là il peuvent plus être protéger dans les trancher (bof quoi !), soit trouver un autre profil qu'avec des points de barage pour celle-ci, mais risque alors de concurrencer rapier et thund.
Bref un calvaire pour tout le monde, alors qu'on pourrait le considérer comme un thund gun tout con et tout le monde serais content ^^.

Le stromhammer est une très bonne idée à mon avis et permet de rejouer d'autre fig que certain laisse dans un coin. De plus son profil n'est pas dégeux : marcheur lent, portée de tir reduite à 30cm, mais mortel avec 4 tir AP5+ et deux tir AT/AP à 2+ ignore couvert et distrup.
Non presque un coup de genie a mon avis, qui correspond plus au tas de feraille qui pourrait agir sur ce genre de terrain que de gros et vénérable baneblade . +1 pour moi.

Les death strike en silos à missile je suis pour, bien que j'ai une autre version personnel à proposer et que je joue déja tel que :
200 pts, un sillot à missile.
Rechargement, save de couvert de 4+,3PS, sans peur.
avec double mitrailleuse 30cm AP6+
Avantage :
les titan on le temps d'agir.
En fonction de la partie on peut tirer jusqu'à 3 missiles.
Inconvenient :
Bouge pas
peut pas faire de légendaire tir concentrer de deux missile d'un coup.

Enfin bon là c'est du chipotage perso !!

Ensuite vient le coup de génie au quel je n'aurais pas penser moi même ^^ : Une aviation personnaliser !
Des avion merdiques à helice qui ferait passer un chassa bomba pour une aviation d'élite. Economique, et amusant à jouer, notament les vieux bombardier vendu par 3 (mais PB 2, avec deux mitrailleuse ^^).
J'aime l'équipement de clochard pas chers et là c'est un coup de maitre, vous m'en mettrez pour le 1/4 de point auquel j'ai le droit garçon !!


bref liste amusante, bien que je verrais quelques modif' surtout sur l'infanterie (remettre son coût dans la limite du raisonnable ), une alternative au mortier à pied bien qu'il soit super-fluff. Sinon tout est bon dans ce cochon !!!!

Des commentaires ?

Citation :

Alors bien sûr, il y a une ENORME erreur au niveau des compagnies d'infanterie et QG

Ouf une grosse frayeur de ma part, merci pour la précision !

Concernant les mortier à pied je trouve que perso çà coince.
Un griffon dans une unités d'infanterie se fait vite désinguer et doit s'approcher pour faire feu.
Ici pour le même prix on à une alternative au gotter, mieux protéger par la masse de fantassin et des tranchées ^^. Sans parler que ces derniers peuvent être placer en garnison( et donc faire feu au premier tour). Je sais que c'est fluff comme idée mais je trouve que malheureusement cela coince pas mal ici en terme d'efficacité.
Imagine : première ligne deux fantassin en garnison avec mortier et les gotter derrière, cela fait beaucoup de PB dans la tronche rapidement.

Concernant la liste j'étais septique au début aussi et puis c'est vrai qu'en y réfléchissant elle à l'air goutu la grosse comme on dit !!

Citation :

Concernant les mortier à pied je trouve que perso çà coince.
Un griffon dans une unités d'infanterie se fait vite désinguer et doit s'approcher pour faire feu.
Ici pour le même prix on à une alternative au gotter, mieux protégé par la masse de fantassin et des tranchées ^^. Sans parler que ces derniers peuvent être placer en garnison (et donc faire feu au premier tour).

Effectivement, ça demande sans doute quelques tests. Cela dit, je pense que PERSONNE ne jouait les Griffons avant, donc autant faire quelque chose. D'ailleurs je crois bien que personne ne joue de Griffons, quelle que soit la liste...

D'un autre côté, les formations déployées en Garnison s'en prennent rapidement plein la tronche. A tester, à tester...

Citation :

Concernant la liste j'étais sceptique au début aussi et puis c'est vrai qu'en y réfléchissant elle à l'air goutu la grosse comme on dit !!

Quel poète.

Bah en même temps en garnison avec des tranchée et 6 bunker on s'en prend plein la tronche mais l'autre en bave aussi en face....... comment ça je ne suis qu'un vil optimisateur ? On en reparlera quand j'aurais ma 3éme victoire avec baran !!
Après pour moi les mortier lourd c'etait les gotter ^^
test test TEST